sarahjane: (Doctor Who - Eleven w/ ties)
[personal profile] sarahjane
I loved it.

I hated it.

I don't mind that there are loose threads. As long as they are tied up at the end of the season and we still get some good mostly self-contained episodes (they are my favorites), I am okay.

Loves:

  • River Song, keep being your badass self. You win me over more and more with every appearance...I didn't much like you at first, but now you are full of winning.

  • Creepy. as. shit. THE FUCKING SILENCE ON THE CEILING LIKE BATS HOLY SHIT. I literally went HOLY SHIT. Also, the tick marks appearing on Amy. Also, EVERYTHING ABOUT THAT ORPHANAGE.

  • The Doctor in the Apollo 11 module and subsequent run-in with security and security's run-in with Nixon

  • RORY!! Rory remembers, Rory loves her, Rory was all worried that she wasn't talking about him, Rory in the glasses, Rory breaking the lunar lander model. Basically: ♥ RORY ♥

  • FBI! Amy = Scully, y/y?

  • Twisting the story into actual history: I LOVE the idea with the moon landing tape having something hidden in it. LOVE IT. Also, the mention of the Doctor telling Nixon to record everything. LOL DOCTORGATE.



There was plenty more I love. Those immediately spring to mind.

I love the threads left for the season. Like I said, I am generally a bigger fan of stories that aren't part of a greater arc, especially as they air. Often, later, as I know the whole story, I start to enjoy those more. I think with Doctor Who, in particular, I am wary of it turning into a show that never wraps anything up, but I really hope that most of our questions are answered by the end of the season. Though I am super sick of seeing regeneration ALL THE TIME. I hope the explanation for the girl is a good one.

However, here is what I HATE:

The Doctor is a man who could not bring himself to never give the Daleks the chance to exist. He is a man who was pumped for the day that everybody lives. He is the man that was unable to push the button to destroy all the Daleks when it meant destroying humans, too. He is a man who hates guns (except apparently for River? STICK TO YOUR MORALS, DOCTOR. What happened to, "You can shoot me dead, but the moral high ground is mine." Anyway...).

He spent quite a few a lines on discussing how the Silence lived here, too. That this had been their home for a long time as well. That they wouldn't be fighting an invasion; they were leading a revolution.

All of this? All of this, to me, means that the Doctor wanted to find a peaceful way out. He didn't even try. Not to mention that, other than randomly kill that lady in the restroom and whatever they were doing with the girl, they hadn't really DONE anything WRONG. All they were doing was having humans do things that were mutually beneficial. If his beef with them is that they were using humans, I refuse to believe that the Doctor's solution would be to do the same goddamn thing and turn the ENTIRE WORLD into cold-blooded murders without their knowledge. Oh, yes, I know. The Silence told the world to do it themselves.

No, they absolutely did not. The Doctor broadcasted a message to the world that was never intended to be heard by the world. The Doctor did this.

It's absolutely horrific. Not a fan of that part, Moffat. Not a fan.

Date: 2011-04-30 07:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bardingtide.livejournal.com
You've made some good points but you've missed something rather vital. Something that /everybody/ seems to miss.

"He is a man who hates guns"

No. Ten hated guns.

TEN DID.

Nine was more than willing to blow the lone Dalek in Dalek to hell with a FRACKING hand cannon.

When the Doctor wiped out the Daleks at the end of the Time War - Genocide.

Six and Five both shot people and Three had no issues workiing with UNIT who are basically the Whoniverses Armed Response Team for Alien life.

Just because one incarnation of the Doctor had issues with guns doesn't mean they all do. Yes there are situations where Eleven doesn't like guns either (The episode with the Silurians springs to mind) but that's only because he believed there was a better solution.

Here there wasn't. He did what he had to do.

That's what the Doctor does. What ever it takes.

Date: 2011-04-30 07:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rhiannon-s.livejournal.com
Didn't BakerT threaten someone with a gun at the end of Seeds Of Death? And One was prepared to bash a man's head in with a rock. Seven was prepared to use silver bullets against the big blue horned thing in Battlefield (but the Brig took his place). The doctor has always been a bit inconsistent on his views on death. Generally as long as he isn't the one directly doing it, it is fine though.

Date: 2011-04-30 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bardingtide.livejournal.com
Exactly.

If there is another way - a way that will preserve life - the Doctor will take it.

But if it becomes neccessary he will kill.

It was only Ten who went all annyoing and pacifistic.

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Date: 2011-04-30 08:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] halfspokenwords.livejournal.com
And yet by the end of the Tenth Doctor's tenure, Rose has a gun, Jack has a gun, Mickey has a gun, Martha has a gun... as Davros said, his companions become weapons instead, and that really doesn't say much for his anti-gun policy. Gotta say, I'd prefer a Doctor not afraid to do what he thinks he must, without all the hypocritical moralizing.

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Date: 2011-04-30 09:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] partmermaid.livejournal.com
Even River pretended she won't shoot the Silents dead when the Doctor was around because "he gets ever so cross", though.

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Date: 2011-05-01 05:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twirlandswirl.livejournal.com
He also sit there and watched Cassandra die, while Rose was begging him not to and DIDN'T GIVE A SHIT.

People seem to forget this.

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Date: 2011-05-01 11:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aiffe.livejournal.com
I agree with you that the Doctor doesn't actually have that huge a problem with guns. He has a problem with genocide, which is a lot more extreme, and is not what happened in this episode. (Also, he's committed that a few times anyway...)

But I disagree about Three not having a problem working with UNIT. I've only just started on his episodes (watching them in order, just finished The Claws of Axos, so it'd be nice if you didn't spoil me) but even if he does end up being more okay with UNIT later, pretty much all of seasons 7 and what I've seen so far of 8, he's been sniping at the Brig for his "military mind" and military way of doing things, getting aggravated whenever the Brig wants to use armed men to solve problems, and that whole debacle at the end of The Silurians was very The Christmas Invasion. So even if he does get cozy with UNIT later, I think he definitely had a lot of issues with them in the bits I've seen.

As a whole, my impression is that Time Lords value cleverness over brute strength, and the Doctor is no exception to that. I think that he dislikes violence and thinks it shouldn't be the go-to best solution, but he doesn't have a problem with using it, especially if his own hands don't have to get dirty. I think he only abhors extreme or unnecessary violence, acts like genocide or hurting someone who's at your mercy.

I'm surprised so many people thought that was OOC, because I didn't think it was for a second. If anything, if he'd thought it was too extreme and turned away from this solution in distaste, I would have found it insincere and hypocritical, given his past characterization.

Date: 2011-04-30 07:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danosan.livejournal.com
nothing says we're done with anything you mentioned there yet, btw

Date: 2011-04-30 07:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jjpor.livejournal.com
But he wasn't suborning mass murder - he was making Earth and indeed any space inhabited by humans after 1969 - uninhabitable to the Silence. In a very direct and potentially violent way, admittedly, but in a way that wasn't inconsistent with some of his past actions. Seven blew up the Daleks' home planet, but did so in a way that manipulated them into doing it themselves. No different, really.

And the Doctor hates USING guns, but, you know, there were these people called UNIT... :)

Date: 2011-04-30 07:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chewynutter.livejournal.com
Bear in mind that we never actually saw any human (other than River) killing a Silent.

There's a strong chance no human will ever kill a Silent because the Silence will take the threat seriously and leave Earth/the humans alone.

Like Danosan has also said, I think you're being a bit quick to start hating on things that haven't been wrapped up yet.

Date: 2011-04-30 08:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] doyle_sb4.livejournal.com
That's exactly what I assumed happened; they got the hell back to their ships and left (considering they vanished from behind a locked door with Amy, they can apparently teleport).

Date: 2011-04-30 07:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cat63.livejournal.com
Someone pointed out elsewhere that if the Silence leave humans alone they're safe enough - it's only if they come into contact with humans (which appears to be something they do mainly to make the humans do stuff)that the subliminal conditioning will make the humans try to kill them. And the Silence aren't exactly defenceless either. Seems to me that the Doctor has only evened the scales a bit.

Date: 2011-04-30 07:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hpapillon.livejournal.com
Chiming in with the chorus - the Doctor attempts to make it clear to them just what he's done, and that they should get off Earth and not come back. He doesn't appear to be actually trying to have them all killed so much as to force their hands to leave humanity alone.

Date: 2011-04-30 08:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sharaz-jek.livejournal.com
However, here is what I HATE:

The Doctor is a man who could not bring himself to never give the Daleks the chance to exist. He is a man who was pumped for the day that everybody lives. He is the man that was unable to push the button to destroy all the Daleks when it meant destroying humans, too. He is a man who hates guns (except apparently for River? STICK TO YOUR MORALS, DOCTOR. What happened to, "You can shoot me dead, but the moral high ground is mine." Anyway...).

He spent quite a few a lines on discussing how the Silence lived here, too. That this had been their home for a long time as well. That they wouldn't be fighting an invasion; they were leading a revolution.

All of this? All of this, to me, means that the Doctor wanted to find a peaceful way out. He didn't even try. Not to mention that, other than randomly kill that lady in the restroom and whatever they were doing with the girl, they hadn't really DONE anything WRONG. All they were doing was having humans do things that were mutually beneficial. If his beef with them is that they were using humans, I refuse to believe that the Doctor's solution would be to do the same goddamn thing and turn the ENTIRE WORLD into cold-blooded murders without their knowledge. Oh, yes, I know. The Silence told the world to do it themselves.

No, they absolutely did not. The Doctor broadcasted a message to the world that was never intended to be heard by the world. The Doctor did this.

It's absolutely horrific. Not a fan of that part, Moffat. Not a fan.


This made me uncomfortable as well, for much the same reasons. But, as other people have said, the Silence could have escaped (assuming they have more timeships lying around - hopefully they do), and Earth isn't the only place they've conquered. Rosanna Calvierri said that her people were running from the Silence. The Doctor sabotaged her attempt to preserve the only known surviving Saturnynians (sp?) and caused her to commit suicide, without so much as offering her a ride to an uninhabited world or somewhere advanced enough to help her. Whatever silence falling entails, it (and the cracks, implied to be caused by the Silence) devastated a civilisation and the Doctor finished the job. He's not going to be very happy with the Silence after that.

Date: 2011-04-30 08:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rhiannon-s.livejournal.com
It dawns on me that the Doctor hasn't necessarily killed any of the silents. If they are quick on their feet, and half decent at physically hiding they should be okay. As soon as they are out of sight the humans will forget about them and not pursue them.

And lets not forget they've been hiding and killing humans all their lives, now they just have to deal with physically hiding and keeping out of site. Avoid humans and they'll be fine, they could retreat into the deep forests...where the Vashta Nerada live...oh.

Date: 2011-04-30 08:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sharaz-jek.livejournal.com
And lets not forget they've been hiding and killing humans all their lives,

We don't know this for certain.

Of course, we also know that they've sat by and watched every massacre, every atrocity, and quite possibly a large number of small-scale domestic tragedies all throughout human history and done absolutely nothing (admittedly some of these were probably fixed points and with those timeships we can hope that they know about this), but they're still a bunch of callous bastards, so...

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Date: 2011-04-30 11:21 pm (UTC)
john_amend_all: (wiztardis)
From: [personal profile] john_amend_all
As others have pointed out, the Silents did do something wrong: as far as we can tell, they're the ones responsible for blowing up the Universe last season.

My main concern with the Doctor's plan is that if a bunch of unarmed humans try to take on a Silent, it may not be the Silent who ends up dead. Their lightning-throwing ability is slow and inefficient, but it's better than anything we've got built in. And who knows what other weapons they have access to?

Date: 2011-04-30 11:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ahlisten.livejournal.com
I know that it's horrible and I don't really like how it was handled either, but this Moffat quote springs to mind: "If you take someone like the Doctor and really piss him off, if you set yourself up to go to war with the Doctor, what would happen? Obviously you’d lose, it would be a massive, crushing defeat, but what side of the Doctor does it bring out? He’s actually quite capable of being really unpleasant to people. Of course he is. He’s a man like anyone else. If you treated Amy with extraordinary cruelty, how long would you live after that?"

I believe it was meant to reference the mid-season finale, but I feel like it was applicable to this episode. I could go more in depth, but I need to rewatch the episode to fully process what I've just watched.

Date: 2011-04-30 11:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] midnightliar.livejournal.com
But he's not a man he's an alien. Wasn't that the whole appeal of the show?

Date: 2011-05-01 04:43 am (UTC)
veracity: (Dr Who - NinexRose)
From: [personal profile] veracity
If you treated Amy with extraordinary cruelty, how long would you live after that?

You know, Moff, we've already seen that. Are you possibly acquainted with someone called Nine? Rose getting the TARDIS inside was a side effect but he'd intended to unleash hell on the universe for threatening what he calls his.

Date: 2011-04-30 11:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bacon-fiend.livejournal.com
Turning the Silence's invasion plan on themselves I though was clever. I dunno, something about the brief flashbacks to all the times we heard about the Silence last season sorta gave me the idea that the Doctor was getting an inkling of what the Silence really is, something that we don't know yet. We'll have no idea if his decision to allow the human race to turn on their invaders was justified until we fully understand what they are.

Date: 2011-05-01 12:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pie-is-good.livejournal.com
I haven't gotten to respond to much here yet, but since this is the most recent comment - I still don't think turning people into killers without their knowledge is justified. Before today, I would NEVER have thought that the Doctor would have thought so, either.

Date: 2011-05-01 02:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kalliope-kheru.livejournal.com
I noticed this too, as it was happening, and thought it very odd. However, I actually have this odd feeling we didn't get the whole story behind that yet. To me, through the whole episode, it seems like the Doctor knows more than he's telling anyone - and we haven't found out everything that led up to the beginning of the episode yet. There are a WHOLE lot of unanswered questions about how Team TARDIS finally found out about the occupation and I just got the feeling in that last scene with the television that somehow the Doctor knew more/remembered more than he strictly should have. "You are way out of time," everyone somehow remembering what happened afterward, etc...

Date: 2011-05-01 02:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pie-is-good.livejournal.com
If there is more to that ending that we do not yet know, I am more than willing to eat my words when the time comes :)

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Date: 2011-05-01 05:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twirlandswirl.livejournal.com
I don't think he intended to get all the Silents KILLED, nor do I think many - if ANY - did. Remember, they have to blink out of view for a SECOND and you don't remember they were there. Getting away? Not too difficult. And he TOLD them all what he was doing. It's like saying, "hey, I just doused your in gasoline, and here's a match, and I'm gonna light it in 5... 4... 3..." They know they WILL die, it's not just a bluff. But they have the chance to leave and survive.

And, by the way, they HAVE done something wrong. First of all, I would say it's extremely extremely unlikely that Joy's death was a rarity. She did nothing wrong, and he just kinda exploded her. That's a cultural practice, not a whim, in my opinion. But, they've infiltrated and controlled entire WORLDS. They've taken even civilization's thoughts and wills away from them. And we know from S5 that they've taken away at least one planet entirely and doomed it's inhabitants to death. Mr. Silent in the Star Cage seems to make it plain that is there intend on Earth, as well.
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